Episode 275
October 14, 2022

The Emotional and Spiritual Burden of Expense Management

What if the way we think about expense management and reimbursements could be reinvented? What does that look like? Listen in to learn how Divvy is changing the way business is done and making life easier for teams like yours.

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this episode sponsored by

An Easier Way

  • Divvy provides software to make the details of expense management easier with tools for keeping track of everything that passes through accounts, budget locks to prevent overcharging, and even cash-back rewards
  • Because accountants have feelings, too, and giving them more time to do their job instead of chasing you down for receipts makes everyone happier
  • “We try to do things that you could only do with a card plus software together.” - Tucker
  • Divvy provides ways to creatively find growth and cost savings in areas that perhaps were overlooked
  • “We've had consistently over 100% net revenue retention for years. We get customers onboarded, they stick around, they know what they like, and they keep doing more of it.” - Tucker
  • Maximize your cash back, maximize your rewards, and turn your finance team into a revenue center

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Learn more about Tucker Stoffers and Divvy at getDivvy.com or {{social media}}.

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Brian: Hello and welcome to Future Commerce, the podcast about the next generation of commerce. I'm Brian. 

Phillip: And I'm Phillip, and today we are going to "divvy" up hosting responsibilities with our friends. {laughter} We're joined by Tucker Stoffers. "Stahffers?" "Stohffers?" "Stahffers."

Tucker: "Stohffers." 

Phillip: Stoffers.

Tucker: We're there.

Phillip: Almost there. Tucker Stoffers is the Senior Director of Growth Marketing and a partner of ours here this year and has been supporting the podcast. How could we not love having someone that's supporting the podcast, making this show possible here? Tucker, welcome to Future Commerce.

Tucker: Thanks, guys. Super excited to be here with you this week.

Phillip: Let's get it out of the way real quick. What does Divvy do?

Tucker: So Divvy is a software suite that brings card transactions and expense management all together under one roof. We're trying to... What are the fun marketing words? We're not trying to make expense management easier and reimbursements easier. We're trying to reinvent how you think about them altogether.

Brian: I like that. So what does reinventing actually mean? What is that? How are you reinventing?

Tucker: No, I love it. The big thing is we try to do things that you could only do with a card plus software together. So versus trying to have to marry up charges to your expense reports, as soon as you swipe the card it's already set to know which budget it's coming out of. Based on the vendor it may already know how to categorize it completely and just eliminate the need to do an expense report altogether. On top of that, locking down things like budgets is pretty sweet. You can set a budget for a vendor where that card can never be charged for more than you've already agreed upon.

Phillip: That's it. Sign me up. Done.

Brian: So when I go swipe the card for the salon dinner...

Speaker5: Yeah, I was going to say... 

Tucker: I was going to say when Brian is going out to dinner he can only get the American Wagyu steak, not the Japanese Wagyu as previously discussed.

Phillip: {laughter} Honestly, we really need...

Brian: Let's not sign up for this. {laughter}

Phillip: We super need that. Right now I think there have been... We came through a period of growth in eCommerce and our listeners know this well because we've sort of been on this train now for six-eight months. Maybe expenses kind of got away from us a little bit. Maybe some folks could be a little happy with the spending. Maybe they were really experimental, really experiential. It's time to rein it in.

Brian: No it's not. No, it's not. {laughter}

Phillip: {laughter} It's time. Maybe it's time to kind of reconsider. Maybe we can get control over some of that. I think accounting is generally looked at as sort of like a human-centric operation, like one person's role in an organization or it's outsourced to another organization. There is certainly a lot of accounting and sort of bookkeeping options in the market today. Does this sort of put at least the expense piece of it, the control of that into the hands of the employees, sort of diffuse the role of what one person's role in an organization used to be around the managing of budget and expense?

Tucker: Yeah, a lot of our goal is to give time back to the people in those accounting roles. So it takes a lot of the chasing down of receipts and chasing down transactions and minimizes it to as little as possible. So I've been spending other people's money for years and years and years and without fail, at the end of the month, the accounting team is always like, "Hey, Tucker, do you remember what like back 97 days ago you spent $14.87 on an Office Max?" And I'm like, "Listen, I know you want me to say yes, and I know you want me to say exactly what project that's tied to, but that's going to be a no for me." So like the chasing down receipts, the "Hey, what was this?" kind of conversations that always happen... My sales guys not having to get 400 Slacks about a business trip that they took and exactly every dime they spent because it's all pre-categorized. That's a big part of the mission right there.

Phillip: That you've already had me at "Hello." You know the problem, and Brian, I cut you off, but I'll give it back over to you. The problem really here is there's a big operational employee experience part of working in a business, especially when you have the role of responsibility is spending the company's money to produce some sort of outcome. And we're all very busy and outcome-focused. A lot of the pain points around the employee experience, especially having been agency side for a decade as I was, is these become tasks that are usually held to the last minute. They're done sort of poorly and under duress and those are the kinds of, between like timesheet and expense, those are things that I think are limiting factors for growth in a lot of organizations, not just in eCommerce. Brian is a repeat offender in not getting expenses done on time.

Brian: That might be true. That's true.

Phillip: That's a true Story.

Brian: So is Phillip, to be fair. {laughter}

Phillip: How many months behind have you been in the past, Brian? Let's be honest.

Brian: Oh, I think the most is probably two.

Phillip: No.

Brian: Yeah.

Phillip: I've absolutely been three or four months behind in expenses in the past.

Brian: Chronically behind, but never too far behind.

Phillip: No, I am both very...

Tucker: Respect for that. Respect. 

Phillip: Yeah. Respect. Respect. Yeah. You know, he's on a 60 day delay.

Brian: Yeah.

Tucker: Yeah.

Phillip: When you're looking around... Go ahead, Brian. I'll shut up.

Brian: No, I mean, I'm all in on this, too. I agree with you, Phillip. Actually, the mental burden and just the administrative burden...

Phillip: The emotional burden. The spiritual burden.

Brian: The emotional and spiritual burden, all the burdens that are on people who do go spend money to keep track of that and make sure that they do a good job with it, which I do have a great system. I am very careful. I wish that I didn't have to be.

Tucker: Do you want one more burden there, Brian? Phillip, when you said you were in agency life for ten years, it reminded me I was too. And one of the things like the other things that just weigh on you a little bit that maybe people don't expect is we ran an agency and we were doing millions of dollars a month in our own ad spend, and we were rocking it across five owner credit cards. And so we were constantly like, "Okay, switch to this one on Thursday, then we need to pay this one on Friday, then we need to do this." And then on top of it, it's like, "Okay, who has the card? I don't know. I gave it to Tucker because he went to lunch with the team and then I gave the other card to the crew that's going to Walmart to pick up drinks to restock the fridge." Sharing one card, taking pictures of cards with your cell phone, and referencing that when you're changing cards on vendors. 

Brian: {laughter}

Phillip: I don't know, I'm doing the see no evil here.

Tucker: Phillip, text me the card right now.

Phillip: That's no, no, no, no, no.

Brian: It's going to be us not long from now.

Phillip: Having managed compliance in the past, I'm like, No, no, no, no, no, no. We don't do that. We don't admit that we do that. 

Tucker: That never happened.

Phillip: No.

Tucker: Yeah, we can edit that out for sure.

Phillip: {laughter} And it happens at all sizes of organizations. I guess one of my questions here is this seems like big company sort of stuff. A lot of eCommerce isn't actually all that big of company. I mean, if you look at the landscape, something to the tune of 2 million Shopify stores these days, the top hundred, there's a multi-hundred million dollar delta between number one and number 100. The long tail are small businesses, are classically small businesses. Can you provide realistically? Are there solutions for divvy to provide for SMBs? Because I think those are the ones that probably have the most need. They have no processes and they have lots of challenges and they're trying to operate their business while managing.

Brian: Well, big companies too. But yes...

Phillip: Oh, you took my punch line away.

Brian: {laughter}

Tucker: Well, like you say, the last thing that a lot of these smaller businesses are thinking about is bookkeeping and expense reporting and tracking all of this stuff. And so by the time they need it, it's usually too late. So one, Divvy is great for making it easy. So you set up the right habits early, but two, where it's actually important, I think, and having been in businesses like that, eCom and retail in general, a lot of times it's a cash flow game and you've got to be spending money to make money. You've got to have the advertising dollars going out to get the revenue coming back in. And so ensuring that your budgets and the visibility into the spend is always there for whether it's the CEO, the CFO, the controller, whoever is watching those things and making sure, "Hey, we've got enough money in the bank to pay for the next shipment of items," or "We've got enough that the FedEx invoice is always getting paid. So products are going out at the right time," the ability that Divvy gives you to categorize and set up budgets in advance so that you're never having that FedEx bill bounce because you've already set aside the money. Whether you use Divvy or you're doing that in paper envelopes full of cash, having the cash flow process nailed down and always making sure that you've got enough to pay that next AdWords bill, that next FedEx bill, whatever it is, is the lifeblood of some of these smaller eCom businesses.

Phillip: Brian, you got to be on this train with me. There's sort of like a natural ICP around, I don't know too many CFOs that are listening to podcasts these days or I don't know, maybe they do. It's true crime podcasts knowing those suckers.

Tucker: They know where all of the bodies are buried.

Brian: All the CMOs and CDOs and CTOs that listen to this podcast are like, "Yeah."

Phillip: Exactly. You know the type. You know, he's a sociopath under the surface somewhere. But I have to think that aren't these decisions typically made by the finance office? Is it that the size of an eCom business tends to aggregate those sorts of decision-makers and your buyer is a little less defined as a finance role and maybe more defined around, well, we need to manage things like ad spend, ad budget and that very much is a growth conversation? Which means it ladders up to somewhere else in the organization as opposed to like a traditional enterprise.

Tucker: Yeah. Honestly, a lot of eCommerce businesses that we work with, that I've worked with personally in the past, are smaller organizations. Twenty, fifty... A hundred people starts getting into a really big eCom organization. A lot of times you don't need a CFO until you're a little bigger than that. And so for most of the smaller businesses that we work with, it really is like an Owner/Founder/CEO making decisions in this environment. They need to know what cash flow looks like. They need to know what rewards look like because some of these guys, that's how they're making the whole business work is on the rewards model as well. So how they're spending money and when they're spending money is super important.

Brian: I love it. The profitability through reward systems.

Tucker: You got to make it work however you make it work. No judgment from me.

Brian: I love it.

Phillip: Should I refrain from commenting on, this is a family podcast, the crap show that's happening on Twitter and Fintech and eCom. There's like an influencer model that's developed. I don't know if you've been watching this, Tucker. I'm surprised at the sort of influencerification of Fintech in our space in that there are a lot of folks who seem to be sort of doing the B2B influencer paid posts approach. I'm curious what growth looks like for you guys, not to get you to comment on what others are doing in the space, but I do think that there are some interesting strategies for growth these days because the traditional playbook, I think, is a little bit disrupted around performance marketing, and that might be hurting your clients as much as you having to go out and win for yourself in those same channels. What does your growth playbook look like today to try to keep Divvy up to the right?

Brian: I mean, I'm assuming you're not taking the cash app strategy. You're not working it into like rap songs.

Tucker: Not yet. I'm not writing anything out. All right. But yeah, it's kind of funny because Divvy's been in market for a few years. We've now been acquired by Bill.com as of the summer of last year, and they've been in business for over a decade. And so now collectively we've been in business for over a decade. And so you do still have to be playing that long game. And we've seen success from investing in the right types of partnerships, the right types of relationships. So those long-term plays are a little bit different. This year we partnered with CPA.com, which with our accounting kind of finance ties is a really big one for us. So their endorsement of us as kind of the expense management solution that they highlighted is really important. And even for people who are in market and things like that, they see that and there's investment there. And then talking to the right people, participating in the right events, kind of that long-term burn is a big part of our strategy still. But Divvy, the Divvy arm of the business still operates as a very high-growth business. We still think like a four year old business and we still know that getting the growth metrics that we've seen year over year since we started is part of our core identity and what we want to be doing. So we do a lot of that demand capture at the end of the day too. So aside from the big relationships, the big things, we invest heavily in digital and those more direct response campaigns to capture and just make the most of the market out there. There is still a lot of demand for things like expense reporting reimbursements, and we may have to do a little bit more education because we're not three tools and a lot of people haven't seen how you can do it all with one. And so there's some education there that has to happen in the middle. But we're trying to really be thoughtful about what we can do right now to keep hitting growth targets and what we need to be doing so in another decade when we've kind of merged into this single software with Bill.com and Divvy coming together and kind of having this full suite of offerings for AP, AR, expense, reimbursements, everything is kind of one thing. People know that that's an option, that it's even a possibility. So there's a lot of investment happening there.

Brian: Something that's struck me is that OPM, Other People's Money...

Tucker: Yup.

Brian: ...is one of the best indicators of economic stability and growth. Because when other people's money is being spent, that means that they're comfortable with that money being spent. As you've looked at growth strategies, I'm assuming total amount of spend is actually a huge indicator of how well you're doing as a business, but also is a reflection of what's happening in the general market.

Phillip: Yeah, you have the leading indicator on economic factors.

Brian: Exactly. Exactly. I'm curious like...

Phillip: How are we looking for Q4, Tucker?

Brian: How are we looking for Q4? Exactly. I mean, I don't want to put you on the spot.

Tucker: Listen, you guys. My PR team is going to tear me up if I answer that.

Phillip: I was going to say we're going to get squashed all over the place here, you can just ignore us and just go back to your party line. Go for it. Don't listen to us.

Tucker: It really is interesting. To your point, that is something we want to monitor super closely. TPV is our internal funds slang of Total Payment Volume. Because we've got people who make transactions on their divvy cards and we've got people who pay traditional invoices through Bill.com. So we've got this really good holistic look at how much money people are spending. To your point, there's a lot we get out of that and we pivot our forecasts accordingly. Look for it in our next earnings report next quarter to get some more insight. There we go. 

Brian: {laughter} Love it.

Phillip: There you go. Brian, now you see what you've done. Now we're going to have to edit this whole thing and we're going to put a disclaimer at the beginning.

Tucker: Forward-facing statement.

Phillip: Yeah, exactly. Yes. Exactly. Do you see what you've done now?

Brian: {laughter} I know. This is how I roll.

Phillip: I tried to get him to comment on Parker. That's not going to happen. So I think that there are ways to sort of like take control or make the employee experience a little better and make the total sort of budget management and expense management experience better for a business. Is it possible to take those things and turn them into growth strategies beyond just management? And maybe there's some productivity there and maybe that's the full suite solution, maybe that's a full suite strategy down the line. But how does this turn into a profit center for a business that's trying to maybe consolidate software, maybe it's increased employee happiness and retention, Maybe there's a bunch of things in there or I'm feeding you what you should be telling me back. But I think that there is a real willingness right now for platform consolidation, for sure. For software automation, definitely. But I think folks are also looking for ways to sort of creatively try to find growth or find cost savings in areas that they had overlooked prior. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about how eCommerce businesses might be thinking about this.

Tucker: Things that these businesses can be looking at to get the most out of their business and leveraging the features that Divvy and Bill have to offer, eliminating vendor creep is a big one. Putting yourself in control of the subscription costs that go up without your approval, without your knowledge, stuff just starts happening. And if you don't have real-time visibility into that, you can't curb it right at the beginning. That instant visibility into miscellaneous spend, like Brian hitting Ruth's Chris one too many nights last week. You've got that.

Brian: Ruth's Chris. {laughter}

Phillip: Jeez, Brian. Mr. I'm anti-bougie.

Tucker: It's a little extravagant. {laughter}

Phillip: Yeah, I would say. I would say.

Tucker: But the instant visibility on that stuff is huge just to curb spending to help look at the efficiency and quality of life improvements that we've kind of already talked about, like eliminating hours of chasing down people to get receipts, hours of chasing down people, trying to get them to submit the reimbursement requests. And all of those pieces come together to just make you run a little bit more efficiently, a little leaner. I think that can go a little bit... That sets a tone more deeply into your business as well when you're doing those kinds of activities.

Brian: One of the things that I love about partnering with Divvy is that actually you speak to our entire audience. We have an interesting mix of audience: merchants, it's their partners, and implementers. It's commerce, tech, and SaaS businesses. It's a whole mix of the commerce ecosystem, and we love having that mix. And I love partnering with you because I feel like you have a solution that addresses them. Almost every type of listener that we have can use Divvy. And so something that I was curious about is, I'm assuming that different types of businesses use Divvy differently. Is there a standout category of business that you would say is really leveraging Divvy well? And then also are there other categories where you're like, "I wish they were thinking about it this way?" Maybe a little education about how to better use a product like Divvy.

Tucker: Yeah, for sure. So transactional digital-first businesses, so when we're talking eCommerce and we're talking CPG, we're talking apparel, those have been great fits for Divvy across the board. So when you think of our customers like Pura or Solo Stove or Kizik, which is a local cool new shoe brand coming up here in Utah, they're great customers because they have regular expenses that they need to be taken care of. They need to be managing the cash flow, and things like that. And it's not just physical goods either. Transactional SaaS like Calendly or Nuun where there's a lot of ad spend, there's a lot of different categories of spend have been huge fits and huge adopters, and I think that's part of the business culture too. If you're a SaaS company or a tech company, like Calendly, you're kind of hoping that your team is a little more cutting edge. And so using things like Divvy versus the abacus and pen and paper to track your spend, getting that out of there as part of the company culture. There are other areas that we win in too, so just largely anyone who's spending a lot on advertising or people who... One area that's kind of funny... In our onboarding process and helping get buy-in across the company, we talk a lot about turning your finance team into a revenue center. So there are a lot of these guys out there who are still just kind of like, "Oh, I get my bills, I open the envelope, I write the check, I ship it out." But not being thoughtful of like, "Hey, can I be paying this with a card and be getting cash back on this and automating it and taking my time back?" And so people with lots of those vendor payments to manage and things like that, just eliminating the mental burden and making it move from the expense column right to the profit column with some cash back, that's a huge win. The other thing I'd throw out there that's kind of fun is every time around this year we start working with our customers to build our holiday gift guide. And so this is like a collection of DTC brands, SaaS, nonprofits, all these different types of companies that use Divvy, we pull them together, we get some discounts for our customers and put them out there. So checking that out, you can see like, "Hey, this brand is like me." See how you can implement it.

Brian: Nice.

Phillip: Oh, so that very discretely answers the prior sort of line of thinking of taking finance and turning it into a revenue center. I think finding those creative ways that you probably weren't thinking about to shift spending onto a card sets you up. You'll take every point you can get in margin at this point. And so I think, even 1 to 3 points, it's very meaningful, I think, for a lot of teams that are kind of trying to pull out a win here in 2022 going into 2023.

Tucker: That's no joke. I've been in retail businesses where our margin was two, three, 4%, call it six or eight. And if you throw like with our ad spend program, you throw 2.25% cash back on top of that, straight to the bottom line, you just totally change the economics of your business.

Brian: Oh, yeah. Incredible. So thinking about Divvy versus like traditional cards and using the sort of cash management, you're using Divvy to manage your spend spends. It sounds like you can really maximize those rewards at every level.

Tucker: Totally.

Brian: Yeah.

Tucker: So we've got specialized programs for people who spend a lot with shipping vendors, FedEx, and UPS. We've got understandings of how those programs work or if you're spending on Google, Facebook ads, TikTok ads, we know that that spend is vital to the revenue of your business. And so we've got special rewards tiers for people who are spending a lot in those categories to help maximize the returns there for sure.

Brian: Back to an earlier question I asked, to combine the question I asked with the question that Phillip asked, which is how are you looking at growth right now? Are you growing your business, Divvy, right now through helping...? What's your strongest growth lever? And you can talk about both of them, but is it helping existing customers figure out how to shift more spend to card and maximize rewards and spend more through Divvy or is it go out and get new customers? Which ones the high priority channel right now?

Tucker: For me and my team on the growth marketing side, we own both of those levers and so we've got goals and metrics for both. But honestly, it's new customer acquisition is a big deal for us. Customer success here owns a lot of that revenue retention and scale, which is awesome. Takes a lot of the weight off of our shoulders and is a really cool partnership. But we've had consistently over 100% net revenue retention for years on the Divvy side.

Brian: Wow. 

Tucker: And so we get customers onboarded, they stick around, they know what they like, and they keep doing more of it. So I spend a lot more of my time thinking about how we get new folks in the door, and how do we show them what this kind of new technology can do and how it can help their business?

Phillip: There's got to be some sort of learning and takeaway here. What are some of the results that are top of mind for you that you've seen with some recent case studies and success stories? You name dropped, you namechecked a bunch of, I think, really popular companies and sort of aspirational brands. What does a typical onboarding look like and what should they expect? Especially if they're looking at this, I mean, as we're recording, it's the last day of Q3. So there's got to be someone out there who is just ballsy enough to pull the trigger in Q4. I don't know who they are. They've got to exist. What is it they should be expecting if they're looking to move the expense management over to Divvy?

Tucker: Yeah. I'll tell you a couple of things that I think are cool about what we're doing here. One, where the platform itself is completely free to use there's not a ton of work when it comes to getting budget and working with finance to make that happen. You've got switching costs and you've got the time investment that it'll take to get people up to speed and do those fun things, connect to your accounting software. But you don't have to go out and look for per see per head kind of money. In fact, in a lot of businesses, they can cut that. And so there's a win right out of the gate there. And then otherwise, Divvy is tied to a line of credit. It's a Visa business card. So there's the credit application, things like that. But our average sales cycle is really short. We're talking 30 to 60 days because you don't have as many roadblocks. You've got your cardholder agreement. But we're not locking anybody into a term kind of contract. So it's pretty slick there. But once they come on and once they've decided to make the switch, we actually have an interim step between our sales team and our customer success team that we call our icons internally for implementation consultants. So this is a group of team that works with businesses that get started with Divvy for their first 1 to 3 months, I guess depending on how much time they need to get the new processes rolled out. But their whole role is to help you. Like, "Do we need to rework expense policies now that you've got more control? Do you not have a travel and expense policy? Let's help you get that going. You've got a hundred employees. Let's get cards ordered for all of them." Since you can set individual card limits, you can give everyone their own card, and then if they need money, boom, just open up the app, and ship it over to them. They can be having a steak dinner in no time. So these guys and gals spend those first 30 to 90 days with every new customer just helping implement, helping make sure that they're looking under every rock to find those invoices that they're paying with checks that could be paid with a card and help maximize their cash back, maximize the rewards, and really try to drive home that, turn your finance team into a revenue center kind of mentality with those organizations.

Phillip: If you can balance that while pulling out a win in 2022 give us a call. I want to hear because I think that there really is a superpower that a lot of teams have in being able to move not just growth forward, but getting internal systems managed up to date and keep those in lockstep while you're growing a business. It's very tough to do. So many businesses, you can kind of tell the vintage of the business based on the software that they're running on internally for their back office. And so I'm always amazed when there is a new point solution or a suite of solutions. Now, I think, with the relationship through Bill.com, it's an amazing thing that will modernize, probably revolutionize at least one person's experience in their business. Where do we point people? How do we get them over to Divvy?

Tucker: I love it. So getdivvy.com. You can always come over and check out information. It's easy to get a hold of the team. With as much that we're always doing to push for growth, we're always doing some fun promotions. Every month we do a webinar demo where we're giving away something cool. This month, timely, we gave away an iPhone 14, which was fun. So if you don't want to talk to somebody, some people are introverts like me and they'd rather jump on a group demo webinar, keep your eye out for that. We're doing 1 to 2 of those a month, or if you're ready to make something happen, you can jump on with one of our consultants right there on the site at getdivvy.com.

Phillip: Amazing.

Brian: Awesome. 

Phillip: Well, we're thankful for it. As a prior podcast sponsor, we have had you on and we do have a link it's getdivvy.com/FutureCommerce. And so I would like to get the attribution on that one. But it's been amazing to have you on, Tucker. We should just have you back just to shoot the crap. You're pretty chill.

Tucker: I've been told. Let's do it.

Brian: {laughter} I love it.

Phillip: You've got a voice for podcasting, too. Thank you so much for joining us here on the show, Tucker. 

Brian: Thanks, Tucker.

Tucker: My pleasure. Great to talk to you guys.

Phillip: And thanks to Divvy. Thanks to you all for listening to this episode of Future Commerce, obviously brought to you by our fine friends and compadres over there at Divvy. That's getdivvy.com/FutureCommerce. You can get more episodes of this podcast and all podcasts that Future Commerce produces, including our upcoming Step by Step series, which will take you from zero to hero in every area of eCommerce and helping you grow your eCommerce business from the ground up. No matter where you're starting, we're going to take you to where you're trying to get to go. All of it's available at FutureCommerce.fm. And if you always want to stay up to speed on the next thing that's coming. And we've got some amazing announcements coming real soon.

Brian: Real soon.

Phillip: We're about two weeks away from announcing the biggest event that we have ever put on in the history of a Future Commerce IRL event. I will leak. I'm a leaker, Brian. It's happening at Art Basel, Miami Beach. I say no more. I will say no more. Oh, there's something, something big coming.

Brian: Oh you are a leaker. 

Phillip: So if you want to get in on that, you want to be the first to know FutureCommerce.fm/Subscribe. Thank you for listening.

Brian: Good work making it all the way through that because otherwise you wouldn't have heard that.

Phillip: It's a whole spiel.

Tucker: It's a reward.

Phillip: It is. That's like the little Easter egg at the end of the show. Thanks for listening to Future Commerce.

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